What Gen Z Want From Life And Work with Sandy De Jesus

If life is a river, Sandy De Jesus is diving right in!

He’s an experiencer of life. A Seeker of truth. And a Creator of the future.

From class clown to entertaining, engaging and educating on social media.

Sandy is about the same age as my eldest daughter. He told me about his journey and how he sees life. We talked a lot about the generation differences and how Gen Z’ers see life.

Organisations around the world have operated in certain ways.

Almost every generation has followed the rules. They served their time. Worked their way up.

Then when they earned the right to lead, suddenly these kids are changing everything.

We can moan and complain. Call them snowflakes and work-shy. Or we can try to understand how they see the world.

Today’s podcast is a fascinating insight into the world of Gen Z.

Told through the charismatic and engaging lens of Sandy



Sandy: [00:00:00] My name is Sandy De Jesus. I am a social media marketer of like genius. I’m obsessed with this kind of stuff. I study it constantly. Been doing it since I was 12 and I just have a lot of fun with it. I think it involves a lot of communication and leadership, which I love.

Sandy: Because of that, I’ve been able to pay my bills with it. I do a lot of videography, content creation, page management and just fun. campaign marketing consulting for brands, businesses and entrepreneurs. And I’ve been doing that now professionally for about eight years. I live in New York City. I love comedy and I’m very excited about the future of work.

Sandy: And I’m excited to leave my mark on it. Sounds 

Rob: great. So how did you get started? 

Sandy: So how I got started goes back a little bit. Very early on knew that I was one of those creative like ADHD kids. I didn’t know this back then, but I know that. Categorize it as now, and I only say that because I noticed a lot of the people that use that terminology now had similar upbringings.

Sandy: I [00:01:00] was taking apart toys. I didn’t want to stand still. And I’ve also learned that’s something that comes to do with just being a guy that just like to be physical and learn in different ways. And I grew up in the Dominican Republic, so I was always outside, always playing, always learning with my hands.

Sandy: Moving to New York City in 2003, school and the corporate production and work lifestyle did not come familiar to me. I didn’t like sitting at my desk. I didn’t like doing homework. None of that, like I, it was very frustrating to me always that I had to do schoolwork and then I had to do homework.

Sandy: It was very frustrating for me. So because of that, and because of all my skill sets and natural abilities, I was a very social person. I loved making people laugh and that. was true always. Ever since I was in school and I started schooling here in New York City in kindergarten, I was always wanting to talk to people instead of do [00:02:00] work.

Sandy: And luckily that stumbled into a strength because Around 12 years old I was playing a lot of video games, and when you’re playing video games, at least now, it’s very obvious that you will Google something. You will search up a YouTube video to try to learn how to play the game, how to get ahead, all the secrets, the best strategies.

Sandy: And I was seeing how much these influencers were making. They were buying new homes, home tours, all these different things. And, long story. I was a very good test taker. I got into good classrooms, good opportunities school wise, but all of my teachers just kept telling me I had potential and that I was lazy.

Sandy: But when that college conversation came around, I was like, Hey, how do I do this? How do I become a successful person? And it was really, how do you make as much money as possible? I googled it. Cardiologists were making 500, 000 a year and I was like, okay, cool. I’m going to be a doctor.

Sandy: I’ve watched enough Grey’s Anatomy episodes. I was like, I can do this. But that required another eight years of schooling and I didn’t feel comfortable with that. So I [00:03:00] got into content creation because I was, I enjoyed making people laugh and I had been watching so many YouTubers from all my gaming research.

Sandy: And then by the time I got into the professional path, I just noticed that they were making a lot of money. So I pursued that path, but I got into it just because I liked comedy. 

Rob: So who were your earliest comedy influences? 

Sandy: So number one for sure was Kevin Hart. He, back when I was in that middle school era was getting very big on Comedy Central.

Sandy: And I was learning from him. He had an audio book too, that I consumed out of high school as well, or during high school. And he was speaking about how his success. truly took off for him and selling out shows on Facebook. So again, I went down this natural pathway of learning that social media and that the entertainment space was feasible and possible.

Sandy: It’s great making videos on my laptop, just trying to get the hang of it. But I realized now there was no [00:04:00] magic that was like, wow, like I’m so talented and let me start making videos young.

Sandy: It was really just the courage. It was just the courage to get on camera. And to speak in front of an audience, which again, I had been doing in my classrooms were full of 20 to 30 kids. And I was speaking up constantly every single day trying to make people laugh. 

Rob: I’m guessing you were the class clown.

Sandy: Ah yeah, I definitely aim to be. 

Rob: So 12 is is maybe the age where You’re quite comfortable speaking out and then there’s a like the teenage years where people seem to shrink back somewhere from about 13 14 to early to mid 20s Did you experience anything like that or were you always quite comfortable in the spotlight?

Sandy: I definitely retreated after I started making videos. I was about sixth grade 2009 to 2010. Right around that time my parents got a divorce and that for me was very reality shattering [00:05:00] because you have this perspective of the world of, anything I put my mind to, I can accomplish.

Sandy: The world is beautiful, I’m gonna do great things, people are so great, we have to work hard, like, all these different things, too. Why are my parents getting a divorce? And so there was a lot of internal navigation that pulled me away from people. Right around that time, I, yeah, of course I loved being entertaining in front of people, but it was just, cause.

Sandy: out of boredom. I didn’t know what else to do. I was being forced to be in the classrooms. But I did spend a lot of time playing video games, spending a lot of time learning the online space. There was a natural retreat, but there was also a internal navigation. So I retreated from the outside world and I went inward, if that makes 

 I like the way that you worded that because I think that encapsulates what teenagers do being a bit older and having seen my daughters go through that kind of stage. There’s that [00:06:00] outgoing time when kids are young and then they go in their shell and then it takes them to their twenties before they come out.

Rob: And when you look at statistics research of who are the loneliest people, it’s teenagers. And I wonder if there’s something in that in retreating into themselves. Okay. And then you came to the college age. And what happened there? 

Sandy: Yeah, so around my college age right around senior year of high school, I was already working.

Sandy: My sister had been working at a restaurant, and she got me a job. And even there, I got more reassurance that, at least for me, from my point of view, that School was not the path that I wanted to go down. I started doing 50 hour weeks at a restaurant job. As soon as I got out of school, I would go to work.

Sandy: There were, towards the end of my senior year, I completely just stopped going to school. And I only went to the classes that I needed to graduate, and that’s another side story, but they were giving me eight classes as a [00:07:00] senior, when I only needed one art credit. So they were trying to keep me in school for no reason as if I didn’t have an entire, world to conquer, like at that age, which is why I think, we have this internal navigation around that age is you come into this space, you collect enough data outside, and then you’re like, wait a second, I need to do internal work as well.

Sandy: Who am I? What do I like? What do I want to do? Why is working hard so hard? Why can’t I just do it? So there’s a lot of internal navigation that, that happens, but through that I learned that, people do value hard work. Around the middle school time when I was going through my depression I thought that hard work didn’t pay off.

Sandy: I thought that people would just say things like that just to trick you into playing nice. But truth be told, the life was really hard and ugly. But around that time I started working a lot had enough money to invest in, in things that I wanted to invest in. I built my own PC. And around that time I leaned [00:08:00] into the freedom that I’ve always wanted.

Sandy: So around that time there was no telling me that I was wrong. And then right after graduating high school, I quite literally paired up with a guy that I just met on Twitter and started traveling the world six months after graduating high school. So there was a level of independence that was developed around that time that allowed me to continue to be even more courageous, because you do have to make a decision around that time of, who are you have to stand on your own two feet, 

Rob: I can definitely empathize. My whole time school and college was a rebellion because I felt why am I here? I could do this quicker. I could do this in four or five years. Why are you making me do it for 12?

Rob: Why do you say that I have to sit here at your pace learning what you want me to learn? 

Sandy: Yeah, 100%. I think depending on, where you’re, what you’re experiencing, I think it’s a fight or flight moment, where, you decide whether or not you are [00:09:00] going to surrender to the world and your fears, or if you’re going to surrender to your courage.

Sandy: Because at that point, you have to decide whether you’re going to die on your own sword. And it is a very important time, but I think it is developed around that time where you’re like, wait a second, no, I’m going to decide what happens, right? Because even around that time too, and I’m curious to hear what you went through around that time, but I was experiencing and learning a lot about death because I was having, deaths happened in my family.

Sandy: Around that time it wasn’t just what college do I want to go to? It was how do I want to die? Who do I want to be before I die? It starts now. I have a lot of work to do. The people in my family, the grown ups in my family, I’ve already superseded them in terms of really understanding what the world is like.

Sandy: I’ve seen, you spend so much time in those years thinking about the [00:10:00] future. Putting it all together in your head. So it is a very big decision that you make around that time where you’re like, wait a second, who am I going to choose to be? But then you realize that it’s a decision you have to continuously make every single day.

Sandy: And that’s why I honor and respect leadership so much. But yeah conviction, trust, faith courage, there’s so many different words to put on it, but it’s very interesting that your environment is such a big part of that conversation, but so is your spirit. So is who in yourself and that little voice that speaks up when the whole world is so loud.

Rob: But of course, first you have to hear the little voice, and I think there’s so much noise outside in terms of school and parents and people and peers telling you what, who you should be and what you should do that it’s not always easy to listen to that person inside. 

Sandy: People have their best interests for you. But I think that’s the challenge. I think [00:11:00] people need to remove their agenda off of other people and allow you to make your own mistakes. There is so much pressure on that time from people on how to do things how not to make mistakes, But, if there’s one thing I’ve learned in my later years is to surrender to nature and surrender to the true reality that we are all experiencing, and it’s that we’re all learning things in different ways.

Sandy: We’re all here to research. A different mechanic of the universe. And I believe that my mechanic that I’m researching and that I’m obsessed with his growth. I love growth, but to be obsessed with such a such a curriculum at such an early age. It’s quite triggering for people because Everybody wants to feel like they’re right and they’re guiding you towards a more fulfilling place in life.

Sandy: But they’re only measuring you against themselves and that’s dangerous.

Rob: You [00:12:00] said you felt like you’d reached a stage where you’d surpassed the elders in your family. In, so you felt like that you were the one that needed to come up with the answers. 

Sandy: I saw interview the other day with Shia LaBeouf.

Sandy: He’s a very big actor here in America. He’s done a big ton of big movies. But he put it very nicely where you realize as a kid, you’re so closely connected to source. That if you don’t see what you want to see in your reality, you have to become a creator. So I became a creator, but I realized early on that I was choosing the creator role, whereas people in my family were not.

Sandy: So what they were trying to teach me was not useful because I was trying to create, whereas they were trying to assimilate and adjust. So yeah, I realized, a lot of our family, we come from poor neighborhoods in the Dominican Republic. We came to America just trying to survive. Just trying to get by.

Sandy: And that’s not what I was [00:13:00] subscribing to. So I respected a lot of the information that my family was giving me, but I knew that it was coming from a place of fear. And I know that I’m going to die one day. And if I’m going to die one day, I don’t want to be making my decisions based off of fear. Of course, I want to be responsible but not from a place of fear.

Rob: This is something that’s really interesting now is something I’m thinking about a lot is generational differences. So I think there’s always a tension. So I’m a generation ahead of you. And so I look at my daughters and I look and I think, how can I see them going through the same things.

Rob: And you think, how can you pass on. You can see when you lived enough time, you’ve seen enough cycles that you start to see people making the same mistakes. But there’s a view from a younger side that, I, I know, yeah, dad but things are different now and all of this kind of thing.

Rob: And you think about. In sharing knowledge not just with my children, but generally, how do you save [00:14:00] people? There’s something about humans that we seem to need to go through the pain of experience before we often learn. So each generation, there’s a natural tension that I’m not sure if you’ve ever heard come across spiral dynamics.

Rob: Or Ken Wilber’s stuff of so it’s they talk about it in different colors, as in society goes through spirals and so there’s very conservative and very concerned with society, which then leads to a generation, which is very focused on the individual and freedom, which then comes around to a society, which then And in different ways, and they detail different levels of evolution.

Rob: Something that is also talked about a lot is, Millennials in the workplace. Gen Z is the new one, isn’t it? 

Sandy: Here we are. Yeah. 

Rob: And so there’s a, seems to be very different perspectives. And I don’t know if you’ve ever come across Morgan Household’s Psychology of 

Sandy: Money. No, I’m going to need a list of book recommendations from you, 

Rob: Just to give you an overview is what I really like is [00:15:00] he talks about money, but about the psychology and he says that our outlook on money is more determined by the experiences we’ve had.

Rob: So example, baby boomers, they came through the war, the generation before came through the Great Depression of the twenties, the thirties. So I grew up in the seventies, eighties. So the seventies was a time of great turmoil, chaos, the eighties were a time of great materialism. It was like the first yuppies, and so the experiences that each generation have gone through.

Rob: Are what determine their attitudes towards money. Baby boomers have like never had it so good that whole generation that for the first time there was money, there was a wealth of money, it was easy to make money, property was cheap, things like that. Then after that, there’s, there’s different generations which have different experiences.

Rob: So I’m wondering like what was going on when you were growing up socially? And [00:16:00] how that might have impacted your views on work life. that’s a great question. So for example, you were the first generation really that had YouTube Facebook, all of these things. So it’s a, yeah. It’s a great change from any other generation probably.

Sandy: Yeah. No I saw all these programs come up. I was on YouTube when it first launched. I was on Facebook when it first launched. I was on MySpace. I was. Listening to the websites that my uncles and aunts were dating on, Hi Fi was one. What I think, and this is again why I think it’s a spiritual thing, because I think Gen Z ers can sense this, they just don’t know how to verbalize it.

Sandy: I think that we as humans try our best, I think it’s really beautiful what I’ve seen my entire life with humans, and we can all, regardless of our generation, share The understanding that we didn’t, the human experiences. We didn’t choose to be here. We were assigned a family were born and things [00:17:00] change.

Sandy: And even though that’s sad and scary, we try to hold on to the things that we think could at least make tomorrow a little bit better and a little bit better because we try to keep alive what we see change and die with our older loved ones. And so I understand that. And I know that Gen Zers understand that as well.

Sandy: But I think that the older generations, at least from what I’ve seen growing up they’re a little bit more afraid and I think that happens with time because as you assimilate and grow with this universe and this life, essentially, the more you have to lose. And I think that what I saw very specifically was that even though my family members were working really hard and they were coming home late, my dad was coming home late, my mom was coming home late, they were all sacrificing a lot, but they weren’t happy.

Sandy: We left this country in the Dominican Republic to come to the United States for a better life. We were making more money, but everything costs [00:18:00] more. We were making more money, but the parents didn’t have time to raise me because they needed to work more. We had a better place to live and a better looking bathroom, but they were all empty.

Sandy: There was no time and attention. I think back to what you were saying earlier. I think it’s very beautiful that older generations try to pass on knowledge and wisdom. But we all have to remember that when we were all putting ourselves together so that we could survive death, essentially, right?

Sandy: You’re putting yourself together when you’re in 12, all the way up to college years. You’re putting yourself together. You’re trying to survive. You don’t want people to hurt you. You’re trying to be strong. You’re trying to be attractive. You’re putting yourself together. Everyone’s giving you I learned in business that it’s free consulting.

Sandy: Everybody has free consulting. Everybody wants to give you free consulting, but the information that you truly want is information you pay for. What I would have loved for my mother and my father is for them to, instead of just everyone else telling me what to do is to take me to the [00:19:00] river. In Alan Watts, The Wisdom of Insecurity, they speak about how humans, we appreciate the river and we love the river, but we try to hold on to the river and put it in a bucket.

Sandy: But once you put the river in the bucket, it’s no longer a river. And so what I would have loved for my parents is to be walked to these lessons. Don’t tell me what to do. And don’t tell me what the answer is. I want you to understand that I’m using the same technology that you used. To learn your lesson.

Sandy: I’m using it too. So don’t just give me the information. Take me there. I’ve learned a lot of wisdom from cold showers, exercising, discipline, these are the natural things of life that I think truly teach lessons. And these are the natural things of life that take that wisdom and really integrate it into yourselves.

Sandy: So that way when things get hard, you can actually make the right call. And there’s just all these different things that I analyze, but what I truly come to under to feel in my body is [00:20:00] that there’s this fear going on and it all comes from love from these older generations.

Sandy: What is it? They’re trying to protect us. They’re trying to guide us towards the right path. Again, I think that’s just Taking a bucket of water and trying to call it a river. I understand that the world is scary, but if and this is a conversation I wish I could have with my parents. My parents speak Spanish.

Sandy: So it’s a little bit harder to, to communicate these things and they just they haven’t done the emotional intelligence work to really, understand these ideas, I just wish that they understood that. They knew that life was full of change, and that they were gonna die, and that I was going to die.

Sandy: So if you know that life is scary, and that this is what you’ve essentially signed me up for, then when it comes to passing on wisdom, let’s take those same truths. Into the conversation, right? Don’t just give me the information. Take me to the river. Take me to the forest. Talk to me about death.

Sandy: Talk to me [00:21:00] about, these deep things. Don’t just give me the cherry on top. Give me the entire Sunday. I want the entire ice cream because that’s what matters to me because I’m going to die too. I’ve seen a lot of my life where it’s a lot of, Oh, trust me. You don’t want to know. I’m going to, I went through so much and I’m trying to protect you.

Sandy: But it’s okay, so you’re going to keep things hidden from me, and I think that there is a, that’s obviously the conversation right now is from the older generations to these new generations that there’s just this misunderstanding, but I think it’s just that people really need to understand that Gen Zers, we see it from the same perspective you do, we were just born a little bit further down the line.

Sandy: And our reality 2024 is asking us to be courageous. The economy is asking us to be courageous. Our spirits are asking us to be courageous. We don’t just want to work for work sake. We want meaning. We want to die with purpose. And I think that’s something we’re not willing to [00:22:00] sacrifice. And I think that if the older generations want to truly connect with us, they need to accept this bitter pill of we’re going to die, stop spending so much time at work, take me to the river, quite literally I would recommend that to older generations.

Sandy: If you’re trying to connect with your your kids, how do you connect with yourself? I’m sure you connect with yourself the same ways they need to connect with themselves. Do that together. Go on a hike. Do something challenging together. Do a cold plunge together. That’s the kind of stuff that I feel like really connects people.

Sandy: I’ve learned a lot this year and last year about what it means to be a man and what is it rites of passage. I think the beautiful perspectives that all these generations have. Is coming to a place of we need to find mutual understanding. And the only mutual understanding we can find is.

Sandy: What we all used to be here in the first place, which is nature. And you know what God is, and you can I only say that word because I feel like people understand the [00:23:00] concept of God, but there’s this, an intelligence here that we were born to that is trying to talk to us and teach us.

Sandy: And I think that for me at least the disconnect is that when. Older generations ignore that and they don’t and they don’t want to speak about it. And I think that it would make a big difference. And it would be a much more productive conversation. What do you think, Rob? 

Rob: Okay. That’s fascinating.

Rob: I’m trying to piece it together. Okay. So when you say older generations, there’s so much fear by that. You mean there’s there’s kind of structures and people want security people want. So when I was growing up, it was where people were used to a job for life that used to be before the generation before mine.

Rob: It was like my dad worked for Kodak for 45 years and people would go into a job and they’d stay there. And that’s what they wanted. It was my generation that dealt with first where there wasn’t a job for life and it was usual to change around. But we’ve had, so I, is that what you mean by the, [00:24:00] by fear?

Rob: As in people are afraid of consequences, people are afraid of losing jobs, people are afraid of things not working out. I think 

Sandy: It’s just, it was a, for me it was a big sense of fear of letting go and change. There was fear of trying new things, fear of learning, fear of growing fear of adjusting.

Sandy: Because if you are going to bring me into this world and I have to adjust and you’re trying to find mutual understanding with me, then you have to learn how to adjust with me. Or what you’re asking me to do is to leave you behind, which can be quite conflicting. 

Rob: So what you mean is basically work has to adjust for Gen Z. 

Sandy: I think work is already adjusting for Millennials. I think Millennials are starting to already find a common ground between purpose and fulfillment. I don’t think work has to change for Gen Z. I think that teaching and parenting, And that kind of stuff has to change.

Sandy: I think more, I’m more speaking to here to, relationship between family members and parents. [00:25:00] But it does have to be part of the conversation because when you’re trying to make that family, that family bond with the Gen Z er. The Gen Zers got their eyeballs on survival and in buying groceries, and I think the concern that older generations have speaking to Gen Zers is that it comes from the same angle, but it comes back to we’re just trying to love each other and we’re trying to have this family perspective.

Sandy: So I’m not speaking here to the work environment, even though it’s a subcategory of this conversation. I’m more speaking to the parenting and the family aspect because, we started this conversation of what did I see in the family while I was growing up that, made my point of view and why I felt it was, I had superseded the 

Rob: perspectives.

Rob: Okay. Something else I wanted to ask you about is you said you saw yourself as a creator rather than an assimilator. And I’m not sure I understand the difference. 

Sandy: Yeah I learned about the first time I learned about assimilation was the 11th grade that word. And what I mean by the by those [00:26:00] two words is, I could have assimilated, I could have, taken my attributes, my characteristics.

Sandy: And said, you know what, Sandy, that’s just your hobby, which was a lot of the words that I was hearing when I was growing up. That’s just your hobby, Sandy, keep that as a hobby. What are you going to do as your career? And I didn’t want to assimilate. I didn’t want to pick a job just for work’s sake.

Sandy: I didn’t want to go to college just for the sake of going to college. I didn’t want to get A’s just because everybody was telling me to. For me, it was one of the other words that I learned after graduating was fulfillment. I cared a lot about fulfillment. And so I became a creator.

Sandy: I spent a lot of years in the freelance stage and as a creator, you make opportunities, you make create, you find opportunities. So where, my family wanted me to assimilate and have, the traditional American dream like route. I wanted to be a creator. I said, I don’t want to just work because, the story at the restaurant job was I [00:27:00] was getting great results.

Sandy: I became a shift manager at 17 and I was in charge of older people. I was increasing the revenue at the store when I was on the day that I was in charge, which was Saturdays. And when I asked for a promotion to become a general manager, which I thought would have been really cool. 17 year old becomes general manager in New York City restaurant.

Sandy: It would have brought a lot of publicity towards the store and the entire brand. They told me I was too young. So I never wanted to assimilate to that to a world where people told me what was possible and what wasn’t possible. And so instead I became a creator. Making people laugh. I was connector.

Sandy: I love adventures. And I made a career where that was possible. And because of that, I think I made the world a better place. I think that it’s, bad for the world when you know, you commit to a career that you’re not truly passionate about. Because I think that Every conversation needs that extra love in order for it to be a sustainable [00:28:00] business, and in order for the business to be better for the world overall.

Sandy: I’ve seen this in one of the companies that we worked for all of last year. They are the third largest coffee franchise in America. And they do coffee, but you couldn’t tell. You go to these conferences and it feels like they’re building rockets, how much attention to detail they have and how much they love every system and protocol of their job.

Sandy: And so if you’re not fully passionate about your job, I think it creates a lot of room for error. And then the consequences are just, they just stack up over year and year. So for me, I wanted to be a creator. I wanted a position that I was fully passionate about so I could make the world a better place.

Sandy: I didn’t want to just assimilate just for the sake of survival. Again, I think it came from a very fear based mentality that my family had because we were immigrants. 

Rob: So I think I get it now. I think you mean by assimilate, you mean you fit into this existing structure. You wanted to create a new structure.

Sandy: Yes, it’s like staying inside the box versus creating outside the [00:29:00] box. Okay. 

Rob: This is fascinating to be able to understand. So we’ve got two sides of the generation. Something else I’d like to ask you about is I don’t know if you’ve seen Simon Sinek, when he had a rant about millennials in the workplace and the Upbringing 

Sandy: and what we’ve done work with Simon Sinek, which is ironic, right?

Sandy: When I was getting started around freelancing, I was able to do an interview with him. And I think around that time it was when that talk was going viral and I watched it. I think I remember watching it, but I do not remember it. It was a, it’s a, it’s an old interview, I’m assuming. 

Rob: I think so. I think it was the, it seems to be the one where he went viral and launched 

Sandy: him.

Sandy: Yeah. Around 2018, 2019. Yeah. I think I know which one you’re talking about, but if you could remind me, that’d 

Rob: be great. Yeah. So basically I’m going from memory that he said. Like our generation so he said, what he sees as millennials going into work and they’re like, I want to make an impact.

Rob: And then two weeks later they’re going I’m going to leave because I’m not making an impact. And he said you haven’t been there long enough. And he said it’s [00:30:00] basically, that our generation. Didn’t want to make failure or as you’ve said, there was a fear around, I think a lot of parents had fear and it was like you gave eighth place trophies no one ever fails, everyone’s told that they’re special so like older generation has been brought up quite harshly and it’s do this, do that, sit there and be quiet be seen and not heard, and then, We went the other way and, you’re special.

Rob: So he’s talking about that. He’s talking about, dating apps, like you say, social media, that everything is you swipe left and you can hook up, but actually real relationships take time. So it’s the allure and the promise of social media as opposed to the fulfillment that really comes through time and energy and effort.


Sandy: Yeah, 100%. So in, now take that for instance, right? So if we’re trying to communicate that knowledge to Gen Zers, we don’t just say it. I do a lot of coaching now, [00:31:00] and this is an exercise I love to do, especially around dating with my clients, is I’ll hop on FaceTime with them, and they’ll go to a busy corner in their city or town or whatever, and they’ll, anytime they see somebody that they think is attractive, they’ll let me know, and I tell them, go and talk to them.

Sandy: Go and talk to them. Because you can’t just say that. You can’t just say, Hey because think about it, right? We’ve been brought up on so much information. Everybody’s telling us something. The internet is telling us something. The articles are telling us something. Muse, our influencers, everybody’s telling us something.

Sandy: But we want to feel this sort of presence and this level of being seen that we sometimes don’t know how to communicate. But I think that we don’t know how to communicate because it’s also been left out of the stories. We’ve been only taught the cherry on top. What I love to do is, hey, let’s go and let’s go experience this in person.

Sandy: Let’s go experience that fear and the nervousness and all that stuff, [00:32:00] because you realize afterwards that you’re totally fine. You’re fine. But for a parent or somebody older to just. Because Simon Sinek will say it, and I understand he can’t hang out with each of us and teaches these lessons, but as someone that’s maybe dealing with this responsibility of I feel like I have to do something.

Sandy: How do I speak to a Gen Zer? Challenge them, go take them outside, connect them back with the truth. Because, I think there is this This comfort, that we are all prescribed, but only because people are buying into it. So Gen Zers, we get into the the market landscape, and we’re being advertised to, we’re being advertised what works, these marketing companies and these technology companies didn’t get their research out of nowhere.

Sandy: They know that these things work. As we’re being advertised, we’re being given all this information. We just want to feel something real. And I think that things flip on their head when you just bring people back to the truth. Now, I think that big part of the conversation is again that people are just trying their [00:33:00] best and that it’s all love and, we’re all just trying to be protected.

Sandy: Bye. If you are protecting me from the truth by hiding the truth, that’s dangerous. That’s real dangerous. And I think that’s where you have kids spiral and break rules on purpose and go crazy because they feel so isolated. Could you imagine what would happen if you put a chimpanzee inside of a hospital room for too long?

Sandy: It would go insane. So it feels like spiritually and mentally, sometimes people put us through these things for our protection. But yeah it’s, I think it’s just, bringing us back to the truth in a way that, almost shows us respect like, Hey, you can handle the full lesson.

Rob: Now I’m starting to, I think I’m starting to understand. 

Sandy: Gen Z training with Rob McPhillips, welcome guys.

Rob: So I suppose we grew up with we grew up television, but it was very limited. And we grew up probably with books and we grew up with. [00:34:00] systems and structures that we fitted in. So there’s the industrial revolution, there’s all these kind of structures, people go to a job. And what’s happened since I, entered the old world of work and that kind of thing, is we’ve had all social media.

Rob: We’ve had an explosion of entertainment. I grew up with, there was three TV channels then became four, then became five and we thought five was a lot and then suddenly you get satellite TV, which is, 500 channels I 

Sandy: remember that too, by the 

Rob: way. Oh, wow. But your generation has grown up with.

Rob: Netflix on demand video, social media. You’ve also grown up with technology. And, I’m guessing you had phones at school. All right. 2011 is probably well, 

Sandy: And I think this is good. Good to bring this up. I think Gen Z truth be told, I don’t think we have to worry too much about Gen Z, right?

Sandy: I was born 1998. So when I was five, when I was six, seven flip phones were out, so I saw the natural progression of flip phones to [00:35:00] smartphones. Like I lost my mind to when Blackberry Blackberries were out sidekicks were out. And then all of a sudden you had a full phone. No buttons. It was all touch that blew my mind.

Sandy: I think what we definitely have to be very careful and worried about is the kids growing up now. The kids that quite literally are growing up with Netflix and YouTube. The kids that are quite literally three, four years old watching YouTube all day. Those are the ones that are quite literally growing up with this stuff.

Sandy: When I was living in the Dominican Republic, we had an antenna for the TV. When you had those few channels, I remember when you wanted to watch a movie, you had to wait till it was being streamed on the YouTube channel, or when Netflix and Blockbuster did come out, you had to order the CDs and you had to wait for them to come into mail and all these different things, if you wanted to use a computer, you had to go to the library.

Sandy: Things like that. So I remember things like that. I think Gen Z, we’re good. There is this rebellious nature that we all have where we want to improve things. But, be careful with the kids. I was working with these clients where [00:36:00] their kids were on their free time drawing these demonic beings and cartoon characters.

Sandy: That they were watching on these shows. So it’s I think Gen Z, I, of course, we’re making the news right now because we’re at that age, where we’re getting publicity, where we’re learning ourselves and we’re being our, we’re being rock stars, which I think every generation goes through.

Sandy: But let’s be very clear that I’m worried as a gen zero of the kids growing up now because everything has to be like, oh man it’s almost like the addiction that we have. And I don’t know if you’re a coffee drinker. I need coffee. I gotta go make coffee. It’s have that now with entertainment.

Sandy: If I’m curious to see what happens when the kids these days get depressed. Like, how are they gonna handle depression? How are they gonna handle these difficulties when their brains and neuropathways are trained to have a solution come to them in five seconds, 10 seconds? Yeah. , I’m worried about that too, Rob.

Rob: YeaH. 

Rob: you are gonna experience that in 10 [00:37:00] years. But what I’m seeing though, if you’ve got all that social media. It’s also at a time when , the media is much more suspicious, there’s much more conspiracy theories now because they’re given voice, there’s much more polarization. So what you’ve really got is a generation that doesn’t trust what they’ve been told.

Rob: A generation that’s been exposed to experience, a generation that have had things were more scarce before, so they don’t really want things, they want experience. And I think when you’re talking about, fear and don’t try and limit me. It’s really about if your main way of growing up, 16 to 20 has been watching this people live their life on social media, you’re there like, I want to do that.

Rob: I want to be told and 10 years time. I want to be able to do that. It’s I want to do it now. And there, there is you’re about the age of my daughters. And they’ve grown up with YouTubers and they talk about [00:38:00] these YouTubers and that and it’s they, for them, it’s personal and it’s like they’re people they know.

Rob: So I think you’ve grown up going they’re doing this, they’re doing this. I could do that, let me out of here. And so maybe there’s. I think maybe that’s what you’re talking about is in terms of take me to the river is give me the experience.

Rob: Let me have it. And let me make sense of it. 

Sandy: Yeah, let me feel, I think, maybe. And I’m curious too, because, I have a niece, I’m the youngest of three. But I’ve taken on a lot of responsibility my entire life. I’ve always felt like a parent, even though I’m not, but obviously it’s different when you’ve nurtured.

Sandy: A human being to life, which congratulations, by the way, getting a child to 25. Around that age is an accomplishment. So congratulations. But is there this level of, I worked so hard to give you these opportunities. Don’t mess it up. Don’t take, I’ve tried to raise us up here.

Sandy: Don’t take us back down here. I understand there must [00:39:00] be a level of that. But, we have to trust what’s going on. We have to trust nature, almost like natural selection. If you look at the influencer marketing space, by the way, It’s not all bad, of course, there are a lot of influencers out there making a lot of money, but they earned it.

Sandy: People aren’t they’re just giving them their views for no reason. They’ve earned it. And the reason why they make so much money is because the people watching also purchase from them. And then advertisers want to do business with the influencers because they generate cash flow. So it’s not all bad, but if you do have someone looking up at the stars and saying, I want to do that too, don’t tell them to be realistic, because you’ve essentially taken them to a place where they can see beyond you, that’s worth celebrating.

Sandy: If it scares you good, this is what you signed up for. Being a parent is scary. I think we just need reminders and we need to respect the younger generation a little bit more and say, you know [00:40:00] what? I have to trust you. There’s a word, a phrase I remind myself a lot of based off of what I’ve experienced, which is lead by example, as I’m leading the next generation, I lead by example, I’m not going to be a hypocrite.

Sandy: Of course, things might change and I am going to have this podcast here to keep me accountable, but I remind myself every day that. If I do want to have children, it’s not for the sake of trying to control who they choose to be. I don’t think that’s what we’re here to do as a civilization. I think we’re here to do something together as millions.

Sandy: And if we’re here to do something together as millions we have to be very careful of the rules we set up. If I say that I can put my mind to anything and I can do anything is when it comes to achieving. financial success or vitality, prosperity. Then when it comes time for my kid to do the same thing, I can’t tell them to be realistic.

Sandy: There’s a lot of movies that teach you this kind of stuff too. Happy feet one and happy feet two. If you ever want to go watch it, it teaches [00:41:00] you these lessons. But we all have to accept that the world is a scary place and Jen’s years. There’s, like you said, a lot of information coming out, and a lot of the information that comes out, we also feel like we can’t trust.

Sandy: I think that as much as we, get frustrated by youthful energy, we also have to honor it. Because at the end of the day, whether we like it or not, Gen Zers will be the decision makers one day. So we can’t just yell at them and tell them that they’re doing things wrong. We have to say, wait a second you get what you tolerate.

Sandy: Your message, right? If Gen Zers are acting a fool and it’s making us a little uncomfortable, maybe it’s just, a matter of us just doing a little bit of shadow work and figuring out why it’s making us uncomfortable. But it’s also understanding whether or not we’re being too controlling and we’re not surrendering, whether that be God or the lessons of life.

Sandy: Everything’s changing drastically. AI, everything, dating, everything, right? Having children is a tough conversation. There’s chemicals and water and you’re, the [00:42:00] banks are lying to you. Imagine trying to think about putting together a family in these times. It’s not easy. And so there is this inner revolt.

Sandy: And it looks messy sometimes. So give us a little bit of time, give us a little bit of time, like we’re trying to make sense of this all and it’s a lot to make sense of. 

Rob: Okay, I’d just like to get your advice. So there’s this natural conflict. So we talked about, Simon Simnick saying it because a lot of businesses are saying it.

Rob: For example, Pete, someone’s someone say. Let me take the role of someone who’s a leader and they spent 20, 25 years and they work their way up and they work their way up through the old way of they’ve put in the time they’ve followed the rules, they fit it in they’ve got up, they’ve become the leader.

Rob: So they have taken on a young Gen Z millennial. He’s got an entirely different view growing up with a different view, wants to be fulfilled whatever. So [00:43:00] there’s a conflict between the person who’s trying to run a profitable business who may not be like it’s not apparent. So they’re not bothered about, that they want, they’ve hired someone, they want to result, they want to keep the business.

Rob: Profitable they want the person to be productive, whatever they want them to fit into the business model, but they have, how do we resolve those conflicts? 

Sandy: It’s a great question. And I also want you to know that this is something I figure out on a daily basis too, right? I read a lot of books on Autonomous leadership.

Sandy: I just finished reading entrepreneurial operating system. There’s a reason why a lot of leaders to focus out on psychology and systems, right? We’re trying to figure out how to keep our organizations growing. Cash flow is oxygen, right? And when you spend years and years trying to make a system work.

Sandy: Where you can actually get sleep, and you’re not anxious, and you can actually get some rest. You gotta grow, you gotta hire someone, and then you gotta adapt to the economy. So sometimes, whether you hire this younger person for [00:44:00] their new skill set that is popular in the industry or whatever, it can be a little scary when they come with all these new ideas, and they want to change so much, right?

Sandy: I think that it’s just a matter of putting together a an agreement, right? Everything happens in, in, in terms of agreements. Like for example, I just started a new position and I know that every ingredient that I put into this agreement, week one, week two, week three, it all matters. What I would highly recommend to anyone hiring a lot of these energetic, creative, visionary, people, Is to be very clear on what you want, there’s and by the way, there are traditional books.

Sandy: So Dan Sullivan, he’s been in the space now for a long time. He’s 70 years old. He just wrote a book called who not how speaks about how when you want something done better than what you can see, you have to hire the who and let them handle the how. So are you hiring this younger person and are you qualified enough to tell them how they should be doing things?

Sandy: Or are they the [00:45:00] most qualified to to be the ones to tell themselves how to do things? I think just be very clear on what you’re asking them to do. If you’re asking them to be an assistant, if you’re asking them to be a project manager, a social media manager, whatever it is, be very clear on what you need from them.

Sandy: And also update yourself on what the current work landscape looks like. Things have pivoted since the pandemic, not just for Gen Zers, for everyone. There’s a whole work from home conversation and there’s a big fulfillment conversation, right? Just update yourself because it’s, it works.

Sandy: I’ve been, I work with Gen Zers. We’re very productive we’re a very productive team. But only because, first of all, let’s be honest, not every Gen Zer, just because they’re a Gen Zer and they’re young, is right for your business. One thing I’ve learned is hire slow, fire, fast.

Sandy: Take your due diligence trying to hire someone, make sure they’re a culture fit. But at the end of the day, nobody wants to feel limited. If somebody’s excited and they got vision nobody wants to feel limited. I think people want, [00:46:00] especially Jones years, we want true, meaningful relationships.

Sandy: It’s not just about the money for me, at least if, you and I are doing good business together, but you’re not concerned about how my family is doing and you’re not asking me with truth and authenticity, then. Then why are we working together? There’s a lot to I’ve realized from all the technology that’s coming out in decentralized autonomous organizations.

Sandy: There’s a conversation that a lot of technology enthusiasts are studying right now because they think it will be a big conversation of what the world 10 years. So when you piece all these things together, you just have to understand that you and I learned this from the company we worked with last year again, they had over 5000 employees, and they’ve been in business for 25 years selling coffee.

Sandy: Humans can’t be engineered. We’re not robots. As you’re hiring Gen Zers, know that you’re hiring a person, know that you’re hiring a brother, a sister , a son, a daughter, know that you’re hiring [00:47:00] somebody that’s navigating a lot of things. And also know and trust that those things can make your organization better.

Sandy: When I had this holistic conversation with my team and we implemented core values and I made the culture stronger and I communicated to the team that I truly care about them. And that it’s not about how many hours that they can put in. It’s about how much impact they make.

Sandy: It made the entire place a better environment, but that’s what I need. That’s what I need for my business because we run a social media marketing business. It might be different for other people. Don’t just hire a young person because they have less experience and they’re gonna be more affordable, be very clear on what you need and understand that, Gen Zers we care about all that. We care, we want a relationship. We want a little bit more meaning so I think it’s just clarity. Be very clear on first of all, what you need and what you’re asking this person to do. And if you want them to come in [00:48:00] and make the workplace a better place.

Sandy: You have to listen to their ideas. I’ve learned that a lot too. This year is you got to let your leaders make mistakes. You got to let your leaders lead. So if you’re hiring a leader, if you’re hiring, and I personally believe every person in the organization is a leader, they all create the culture.

Sandy: Just know, Gen Zers, we got a lot of ideas. Like you did say, around the high school time, we did grow up with a lot of technology. So we got a lot of ideas. We got a lot of information. Now. Just because they’re Gen Z doesn’t mean you tolerate arrogance. I don’t tolerate arrogance either.

Sandy: Just know what you want, know what you need and be very clear with the Gen Z er about it cause it can work, it just might not be what you need, but don’t look for a Gen Z er just because they’re affordable, cause they’re gonna want, relationships.

Sandy: They’re going to want someone that they can trust. Even if you look at what Gary Vaynerchuk has been teaching jab, right hook, you give, and then you make an ask. If our customers want this, our employees want this. Gen Zers want to feel something from their employers.

Sandy: And if [00:49:00] you’re not ready to give that, and that’s not your model, then that’s just the truth. Know what you need, and it might cost a little bit more, but at least there’s synergy and alignment. If you’re hiring a Gen Zer, you’re essentially thinking, and you should be at least, Can this person work in my company for the next 25 years and make it a better establishment?

Rob: For me, I think that’s really the direction that business has to be for all generations. It’s really about connecting more to people, releasing more from people. And that’s the way you do it. You create a bond, you build relationships you unite people. This has been fascinating.

Rob: Now, if if there’s ongoing conflict, so if we’re talking about generation what have you learned about navigating that conflict from the side of someone new into the workplace, who’s maybe in somewhere where there’s more fear, that they need to fit into what tips have you learned for navigating that successfully?

Sandy: Yeah, it’s courage and communication all the way through because [00:50:00] misunderstandings are deadly. And there’s a lot of physical trauma that a lot of people don’t calculate into the conversation as well. You, I could be looking at we could be working in the worst space together.

Sandy: If you react to me physically, and this could just be the way that you look at me or the way that you say something, the tone of your voice, it might trigger a memory of mine from an older. Traumatic experience, and I might not know that, and now I might associate you as evil. Rob’s an evil person, because of my past memory.

Sandy: So one thing that helps me navigate everything is just assume it’s a misunderstanding, and be courageous and clear it up. I’ve learned that when you mitigate the time between a misunderstanding and the time you speak up about it, it helps retrain people anyways. So as you do enter a new space, and a new team, and you want it to be a high functioning performing team, Value communication.

Sandy: There’s one thing I’ve also done recently in my meetings that helps a lot, which is a level 10 meeting, which I’ve [00:51:00] adopted from the EOS system. And it’s essentially rating your meetings, it’s staying on track. It’s knowing the goals and being very clear on where we’re headed because if you and I are on a team together and we both have the same goal and we’re both clashing on figuring out how to achieve this goal. Isn’t that a great thing? That’s a good thing. We’re both passionate about what we’re trying to solve. So I think it’s just communication. I think we need to set systems and protocols within ourselves to communicate better.

Sandy: And teams can implement that and have that already a part of their infrastructure when new team members come in. If you are a new team member going into the team, then implement that communication and courage. That’s one of our core values is courage. Because we know that communication can be hard.

Sandy: Speaking up about something can be hard. So just make sure that there’s clarity. Misunderstandings are deadly. Assumptions are deadly. If we’re all here for the same common goal, [00:52:00] then passion should be celebrated. But there shouldn’t be arguments. Things should be clear. And if you find out that your team isn’t as passionate about the common goals, then again, maybe it’s just not a culture fit.

Sandy: So I would just say value communication and clarity speak to your team leader. And ask them about, how does the team like to communicate? How does the team take constructive criticism? How do I best deliver constructive criticism? Do we have a timed slots in the calendar where we give constructive criticism?

Sandy: Candor, moments of candor are huge. It’s great. It’s all great. When there’s mutual understanding that we’re all here to grow and perform, then the misunderstandings just make you stronger. Like you mentioned at the beginning relationships, right? You don’t just swipe left and get married.

Sandy: You don’t just fall in love and it’s always easy. So it’s the same thing, which is why everything we’ve said in this entire conversation is going to make the world a better place. Because we’re learning about how complicated it is to [00:53:00] be a civilization. You and I sit here, we think about the conversation of a parent and a child.

Sandy: You think about the relationship of a wife and a husband and everything in between, right? But it all adds up to family, community, cities, or towns, cities, states, countries, civilization, right? So what we’re really trying to figure out here is how to be a growing and prospering civilization. And the only way we can do that is through communication and alignment.

Sandy: So it all comes back to me and just, clarity, do I know what the 90 day goal is for this team? Do I know why it matters? Do I know that so and is currently maybe living out of his car because he just recently went through a divorce? Is vulnerability part of the conversation and is there clarity around that kind of stuff?

Sandy: Every team is so different. There just needs to be clarity, it needs to be spoken about so I would highly recommend to anyone joining a new team is just communicate and ask [00:54:00] questions and if you’re part of a team where you find out that’s not part of it, and that people are just saying, hey, I’m just here to clock in and clock out, that might not be a position you’re interested in, 

Rob: unless it is.

Rob: Great advice. Okay, thank you. So if anyone wanted to reach out to you so what might they want to reach out to you for, and where would be the best way for them to find out more 

Sandy: about you? For sure. Yeah as solutions in the marketplace, we offer three main big ones. Number one is, do you want us to be in a married relationship with you?

Sandy: And do you want us to give us our all to help you and your brand? That’s our kind of all in automation, social media automation, marketing automation, we’ll create a system around you that you enjoy. That communicates to people authentically and it generates business. Number two would be just leadership consulting, the in between stuff.

Sandy: How do you adapt to the next generation? How do you adapt to the new tools and softwares coming out? [00:55:00] That kind of stuff takes time. It’s like learning how to dance. I can’t just show you once we got to practice, right? So we offer leadership consulting, and then we also offer just custom orders. We’re a growing agency.

Sandy: We’re only three years old. We have a lot of ideas. If you like the passion and the heart that we bring to the table in our projects, and you have an idea and you’re like, Hey, Sandy, I want to throw a jet ski convention once a year. And I want to invite them something crazy.

Sandy: Everybody has crazy ideas. We have custom orders. You can reach out to us at GoAnomalous. com. Anomalous is the root word for anomaly, so we’re all about deviating from the norm and helping you achieve your passion because there’s room for everyone to be fulfilled. and to be sovereign. Of course, I’m not saying about everybody can be happy, but everybody can have joy and fulfillment.

Sandy: And so we want to see if we can do that. So head over to goanomolous.com. You can see a little bit about us, scroll down all the way to the bottom, and there’s a [00:56:00] contact us form 

Rob: and reach out.

Rob: Thank you, Sandy. That’s been fascinating.

Sandy: Yeah, it’s a great conversation. I hear it a lot now too. But I love that we’re all speaking about it because we all care. And so let’s understand that, right? We’re speaking about this because we care. If we establish that we all just care about the situation and we’re trying to improve it, we can all communicate.

Sandy: So let’s sit down and let’s talk about it. I appreciate it conversation. 

Rob: Exactly. That’s really what I’m trying to do with teams of all generations. I love that. Thank you so much for your time. 

Sandy: No, I appreciate the invitation. It was a great conversation.

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