The Communication Loop

Rob: We are on Day 5, who can remember where we started on Monday?

P: A mastery of the journey, it’s all about the journey

Rob: The journey of the relationship, Day 2?

P: It’s about you and the relationship, there is a part about you as an individual and then the relationship.

Rob: Yeah, so connection is more than the relationship, it’s more about the relationship journey that the relationship, Day 2 was deliciously nutritious relationships, which is the graph, diagram, model that Sandra’s so beautifully illustrated.  Day 3 was about Love isn’t a lottery and projects, processes, practices.  day 4 was think free, be strong, share joy and today is, so, basically, there are 7 problems and 7 skills to learn in the relationship journey.  so, a relationship journey is really about, it starts with you, like, at the centre is you, is your emotional capacity, how happy you are is really about you, and obviously, you’re not going to be happy in certain situations but it’s about how you navigate through those certain situations, we talked I think yesterday, about everything is there and it’s all about your perceptual range and it’s about what you see, what you experience really comes down to framework and how you navigate through the circumstances of your life.  so, then it becomes, so initially the first skill is finding someone, so this is really about dating skills.  it’s about the ability to finding a suitable partner whenever you want, now if you don’t have that, if you haven’t mastered those skills there is going to be long gaps between relationships, erm, it’s going to lead to people staying too long in a bad relationship, feeling the need to please or impress a partner, being frustrated at dating sites or the whole process of dating and feeling like when is my one going to come along, that can lead to despair at ever finding another partner.  So, the next, these aren’t exactly specific of when it happens and where but one of the next ones is about connecting, the ability to build connection, if you don’t have this, if it’s like on a dating level it makes it very transactional and it lacks humanity and lacks real, it’s just a series of transactions.  

So, relationships tend to stay superficial, there is no deep attachment, you grow apart in the relationship and challenges will tend to drive you apart, so, the next one there is choosing, so I’ve separated finding a partner to choosing a partner as they are distinctly different skills.  It can be quite easy to find someone but you just keeping getting into the relationship with the wrong person so, choosing is the ability to choose the right partner for you, so there is one thing of dating and there is one thing of committing and you want to commit to the person who is right, the person you can have, so, I because think you don’t have to date just for life long partners, lots of people are like, they are really attracted to the really fun, really, the one they have a lot of lust and attraction for but they might be a terrible partner so it doesn’t necessarily need to be someone you commit to, so, choosing is about who do you commit to so, and if you, if this skill isn’t developed what will happen is you  will choose someone who is fun but potentially irresponsible so like, the dating relationship and the domestic relationship are very different, you could end up in a toxic relationship or end up being in a relationship but then 5 or 10 years in be like, this is the wrong person, you don’t see anything in them.

The next one is I would say conversation, I’ve got communication but it’s really about, conversation is really the vehicle of communication, there is all kinds of communication, there is non-verbal and there is all of that but the real way that we connect is conversation because it’s the most conscious, all the other types of communication like non-verbal and tone and all of that, they are not consciously, they are just stuff we pick up on which is really a side effect of our emotional capacity.  So, conversing is the ability to communicate consciously and meaningfully. When we don’t develop this, conversations are more superficial, connection isn’t as strong, you don’t tend to know each other so well so you assume that you know the person but you don’t really go to deeper depths and so you start, that can be a place where you start to disconnect because you’re now interacting with them as if they are the model in your head as opposed to the real person, also, if you don’t really develop this art and you don’t really have those conversations, what’s going to happen is you’re going to get bored in the relationship and the attention is going to go outside, so, what that means is, not necessarily that you are going to cheat, it may be, but it may be more that you will get more of your fulfilment from outside the relationship which means in the end, what do I need this for and so then it can weaken the relationship.  So, yeah, ok, so, then we have got conflict, so it’s the ability to tolerate differences and narrow the gap between you, or develop a shared vision without lasting conflict, so, I think differences are natural and always going to happen, but it doesn’t necessarily need to lead into conflict and if you don’t, if you don’t master this art then differences don’t get resolved.  so, John Gottesman talks about 67% of problems are perpetual problems, so he separates between the problems that we have that are based on the situation and the challenges we are currently facing but are going to change in time, so like, if you have got like a 2-month-old baby and they are screaming and they are teething and or whatever and that’s causing problems in the relationship that’s temporary because that will change but perpetual problems are arguments about money, about what money means to us.  Money, sex, children, like the way you raise, your parenting style, we keep having the same arguments, there is like friction from frequent niggles and arguing and resentments build up.  So, the last one, so, then there’s healing, assuming that most people are going to have more than one relationship means that the ability to heal from wounds and scars but it is also within a relationship.  There is always going to be, even in the best of relationships there is going to be hurts and wounds and it is the ability to self soothe, the ability to deal with and come back and be more resilient,  where people don’t do that, often people will go through a bad relationship break up, a bad relationship and then be scared to trust they will avoid future relationships, erm, there will be an accumulation of bitterness and resentment, there will be the same argument coming up over and over again, there will be bringing up past behaviours and fights because they haven’t been resolved and I don’t think I really talked about self-mastery,now, , all of these, all of these thread through the self-mastery because the ability to find a partner is really about your ability to deal with rejection, the ability to put yourself out there, to express yourself, the ability to connect is about being able to express yourself, the ability to be vulnerable, that choosing is about knowing yourself, knowing what you need. Conversation is a skill and it’s a skill based on social confidence. Your confidence is a baseline ability to express yourself and the ability to listen.

Conflict is how well you can manage your emotions, and healing is about how well can you choose yourself. How well can you pick yourself up when things go wrong? How resilient can you be? So, it’s the ability to cope with the challenges and stresses of life and enrich the life of others and yourself. So, when we don’t have that, we tend to be more anxious within a relationship, There’s more childish behaviour and there’s a lot of conversations around that aren’t really clean.  Clean in  the sense of what we say and what we are looking for, we are two different agendas. We have the  explicit agenda and then we have the implicit, so we might be. talking about something but really, we’re looking for attention and validation,  we’re  looking for respect we’re looking for something explicitly telling to the other person. So those are really the seven. So, the seven problems are not knowing how to date effectively, not knowing how to choose the right partner, not known how to be yourself in a relationship, not knowing how to enrol a partner or open up on this communication, not knowing how to deal with differences, not then how to keep connection growing, not knowing how to heal from wounds, so the skills are to get clear,  confident and competent at dating. So you can always find a partner. Understand how to know who is the right partner for you to commit to. To be natural, just to know what your boundaries are, to set the standards and communicate openly and honestly. To use differences to deepen connection, to bond through shared vision, to build, maintain and deeply bond, and to heal hurts and wounds

P: Yeah, I think that all sounds really great but what if you haven’t got a partner that you can do those things with?  Because  I’m the kind of person that likes to have a deeper connection. I like to scratch beneath the surface and the relationship I’ve just come out up two and a half years. I’ve never managed to scratch beneath the surface and it used to frustrate me because  (that’s a big bottle). because i never i never felt that i really got to know him he was very closed but past and things like that and i never, i felt frustrated that i couldn’t get really deep into his soul if you know what I mean, so how do you get somebody to? To to let you in like that? Or is it a case of if they don’t, then not the. 

Rob: So we talked. I can’t remember which night, but we talked about there is  a spectrum of totally closed off, totally open. So there’s a spectrum, and all of these aspects and people have the range. And if you make them feel safe,  if you make them feel confident,  If you make them feel,  so, so you personally, Julie, have a range of behaviour when you’re feeling really strong and really confident, really happy and when you’re feeling tired and stressed and doubt yourself, there is that range of behaviour for you, of how open you are, how ready you are to talk to people. So other people will have that and part of that is choosing the right partner, someone who’s within your threshold of what you need. You can activate the better part, range of their spectrum, or the worst part, depending on how safe, how trusted, how strong and happy that they are feeling. So it’s two things. So its first how do you choose them. Someone within your range and then secondly, it’s how do you create the atmosphere in the relationship that they’re more likely to open up, so you can’t make the wrong partner open up but you can encourage the right partner too or create the atmosphere. 

P: So how do you choose the right partner because you don’t know, do you, until you being with someone awhile, then get to know them. so, I always say oh, they will open up, they will open up and then time goes on and they don’t open up and then like a year or two years into a relationship.

Rob: Okay. So, there you have it, right, you said they’ll open up, they will open up, so that was your assumption,  Oh, So what, what you need, so, in choosing a partner, what you need to do is start with the relationship, not the person because what you’ve spoken is what most people do is they meet someone,  going. this is interesting how we get on, we have fun. So, the first level of connection is fun,  the second level is emotional connection and the last is partnership. So just because you get along and you have fun with someone doesn’t mean that they’re going to open up. So, what you have to start with, and this is really about yourself, this is the capacity of knowing what you need and so first you have the question, do you really need that opening up and why and what is it that that will give you and then when you’re clear about that, then, rather than go with the checklist like most people have, the checklist of someone taller than me, someone in a good job, stable income, sense of humour, all of those things, those things don’t really matter how as much emotionally later. So, it’s about what you really need, if you really need someone that you can sit down and have those conversations with and that’s where you’re filtering for  and if I don’t do it, and this is why I say, I think it takes at least a year to get to know someone., and if they haven’t opened up in a year then they’re probably not going to, because what you, what your expressing is that you need someone with the ability to open up and have that conversation and if they can’t do that in a year, then not, what’s going to change. In that year, when you’re dating is when you’re seeing the best of them. Because you’re only seeing them at their best. So, like, if you see him maybe once, twice, three times a week. You’re seeing like, like the  3 best times, when that’s all they’re focused on, when you get into a more domestic relationship, you’re going to see them when they’re tired and they’ve got other things on their mind and then multitasking. So, they’re not going to be. So, the time when they’re going to open up is on those dates. 

P: Is it, is it you think that it’s not normal to want to have that kind of, you know, getting deep in there, because I think you don’t. I think it’s about getting know someone it knows somebody, know somebody  superficially or really know someone. Maybe that’s just me then

Rob: Then OK so, what you looking at is everything. everything is out there, so this is the thing of, like, oh, there isn’t anyone like that, there is the whole world, there’s a whole world., some people love that, some people, not so much. so that’s one of the filters that, when people say it’s like looking for a needle in the haystack or what you’re doing is you sort out, not that half, not that half, somewhere there and then it’s another dimension of that, cut that in half, cut there and half. So by the time you slice and dice it’s not a whole haystack is just a small sliver of it.

P: And yet, it’s weird. Isn’t because I see people that seem to go from one really long relationship to another really long relationship to another, and they just seem to go from one to another to another. and so they just get it right every time,  or are they just compromise or.

Rob: It’s individual, maybe it,  maybe that they just settling and they just like being in a relationship and they’d rather be in a bad relationship than be alone, it might be, like a lot of people are driven by then, they need to be in a relationship and so they will just take any relationship and make the best of it. It’s,’ it’s all individual because there are so many like different dials. There’s no, there’s no one,  right answer to, so it’s. I think it’s easy to get lost in comparison and expectation and it doesn’t matter, it’s you and what you want, and it doesn’t matter whatever anyone else is doing , it’s completely irrelevant because relationships are something that you never know how someone is doing,  it’s like. Happiness, you can look at people and think there they really happy, but their cheerful, cheerful is a genetic disposition, it doesn’t mean they’re happy and. So, you never know how someone really feels and equally, you never know how someone’s relationship is. Lots of people have Facebook relationships that are perfect that or anything but in real life, 

so I remember when my daughters were young, they were on some, like, fairground ride and they were, they were both there, my youngest daughter was really exuberant and she was like, yeah, and she was like that, you could see she was loving it, and my older daughter is like and my ex wife said to me, look, like Rebecca is just not enjoying that. I said wait, wait and see when they came off. I, I said to Lucie, the younger one, how was that and she said, “Yeah, okay and she’s the one going yeah, yeah, and then is said so, Rebecca, how was that and she saying yes, it’s fantastic, It was amazing.  But it’’, the inner experience isn’t always reflected on the outside, experience, I, I’m someone that doesn’t show much emotion and so you would never really guess how I’m feeling, but inside I know, so you, o yeah, so you can’t really judge and a lot of people, there’s a lot of pressure of people, like people will feel that there’s a sense of failure if they’re not in a relationship, there are people, can’t remember where I saw this, but somewhere,  it’s like, like there’s this ranking of single people unhappy in a relationship and happy in a relationship, really. Whether you’re single or in a relationship, it doesn’t really matter if you’re happy, but people who are alone and happy are much better than people who are miserable and in a relationship,  so, and its, relationships are so different. to different people and they mean things to different people, some people,  relationships are really important and some people, not so much it. It depends on, it depends on, like we talked about what your blueprint is, like, what happened and what does that mean to you. In the same way that money means a lot to some people, because it means they’ve made it, it means security, it means safety and to some people it doesn’t mean that much. so. You, you can’t. you can never look at it, but all you can look at is what do I want? And what do I have to do to do this, and today and like the idea that love is not a lottery but something that you can achieve is about making it, So, here’s a project,  this is what I’m working on, this is where I am, this is how I get better at it, this is what I need to do, bBecause people and this goes back to the mediaeval mindset that people think. That a relationship works from different rules, If you, anything else that you do, if you have a business or a project, there’s people looking at go need to do this and then plan it all out and yet nobody does that with relationships because they think it’s this magical,  This is where this magical thinking, they think there’s some kind of different,.different rules to it. 

I don’t know if anyone is familiar with spiral dynamics, so spiral dynamics talks about. the evolution of different thought and so, they talk about. So, when you look at how did America go from Obama  to Trump,  like two completely different things, and they talk about, so, OK, so,  you have like the first level of survival is just chaos and I want this and you can see in child development and in the next level is if I do this, I get this and it’s like reward.and then there is these are the rules, this is what I’ll have to do and then there’s this is the rules and with the rules, there’s, like, magical thinking. And that’s where the kind of magical thinking of the relationship is and then there’s like, they have different colours like blue, blue, orange is kind of where Trump was, it was blue is all about conservative religion. Follow these rules and then you’ve got orange, which is about making money and it’s about individualistic and then you’ve got from orange, you’ve got green, which is all the kind of woke, which are like our society is kind of moving into is about, it’s about green as in ECO, it’s about good for others and all of that kind of things that you can see and what they were talking about was, Trump and Obama activated different elements of society. So, So, I think Ken Wilber talks about transcend and include, which is every stage is always there and there’s some people at that stage and so, relationships are magical, like, there’s this magical mystery idea with them because it’s an earlier level of thinking, and so, when I said that we haven’t done as much research, there isn’t really the body of knowledge. What that means is it hasn’t evolved past the ideas of magical. So, when I talk about medieval times in medieval time, it was about the priest will remove this curse from God or the witch like this spell that’s been on you will be taken off. That’s the level that we’re thinking of relationships. 

P: I mean the dating phase that you spoke about earlier though, and Um and Julia asked the question, while you’re dating, surely there are clues that we have not learned to pick up on that. give us some insight as to how open a person is. Is it that we are so, they are of this lust and love phase that we are in clouds us from actually doing a stock take for the clues that are y

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ou know right there in front of us that you know emerging because we interact with a person, eventually we start to interact with their friends and our friends, you know. And, and things will start coming out. But do we choose to ignore them because it’s? We’re hoping that this is the one. Is that what it is?

Rob: Partly, and it’s also partly we talked about the numerology, the idea of what’s in your operating system is, is what’s going to be the, the problem for you partly is like the Halo effect of I want this to work partly is anxiety of it may never work. So let’s hope it is this one, because if you don’t really believe. If you’re not certain it’s gonna happen. You gonna jump to or to try and make it work? So it’s also not really listening. So the conversation. Because often the things that will piss you off about someone in 70 years time. Ah. We’re already there. But you can listen for them. If you went back and listened to what was recorded, everything was there. So. Part of it is the idealisation of of projecting what you want. And instead of there not being open or my tan its listing. So yeah. Yeah, benefit of the doubt definitely. A. So, if you talk to someone. So, I’ve done this, sometimes they do this with people. If you just talk about relationships. Are you really listening? You can pick up on. Operating system and where their problem is going to be. So. Because. As they talk. You’ll see the assumptions. Is assumption’s that there’s no man out there. As to me, delete enclosure off the assumption that someone has to be like this assumption that the man has to be the one to message first assumption. I spoke to someone. A couple a few months ago, just just listening and. I didn’t like challenge towards you or her assumptions were no substances were. Men out there. I don’t like anyone. She was American. I don’t want any man that’s voted for Trump. I don’t want any man. That’s there’s this. She would never message someone first. She was complaining about the messages that she was getting. And then so I just challenged. Like so, I got a nice letter back. That or email. Basically, she looked at dating differently. She then had, like, three or four men that were like, one, she said was her ideal. Seemed to be profile. She had these dates set up, but more than that, she knew that she could find someone and it was just. Cause she was open. Too challenging those ideas. This is why the Message I was the message I was trying to get over last night, yesterday or last night is that. The only problem? Is not anything that you have to learn. It’s something. You believe that isn’t true? God is going to cause all of the relationship problems and it’s not one thing but your relationship problems. Come from Nice assumption. It’s really about. You look at whatever you think the problem is. And it might be the problem might be I’m not going to find a man that has that conversation. Okay send me assumption. Is no man want to have that conversation? They’re not. Assumption is based. On the fact that you have met Man has that conversation. But if if you think about their role probably OK, some go back to Julie. Just we have something to work with them. Do all of your all of the female friends that you have. Would I pay all like those conversations? They will like the conversations, but the deep conversations you. I don’t know. OK. So maybe there are some of them that wouldn’t. Oh. So it’s not a female:male thing. It’s a personality thing. And so, it’s not that men don’t want that. It’s that some don’t want that? There is some women done. A deep conversation with somebody if you go deep and they don’t match you, is that your opportunity to philtre them out? If you know sometime like you said the year or so, yeah, I mean, if it’s a pattern because it obviously someone might not be, it can be more specific, they can have something on their mind. But yes, if you can never have that conversation. Because the thing like if you get really like building the emotional capacity. Is then you say. OK so. That was an invitation because I wanted to have a deeper conversation with you. But I notice that you didn’t pick up on that. Are you uncomfortable with having a conversation or it’s not something that you like to do or something else? An air that opens up. They even respond. In which case there? Someone that can open up or there’s someone. That one and general expect if they don’t accept the invitation in remove on basically Cos you can’t get back, I will bring it up. I would make it explicit. People have different backgrounds, you know, some people. We talked a little bit yesterday. Some people were not safe, to be honest. Some people is not safe to say how they feel because. Their family, so from I grew up like. My family, my parents are Irish, so Irish have lots of rows whereas my sister then found like English, they don’t row like not. This is like his particular family. Not all English people Summit row, but there is a different communication. Style that. Causes people to. Be less comfortable. 

P: So she said to yourself, it’s a question. This is what I mean. I want somebody that’s open and honest and transparent and communication. Then if you’ve made that explicit and they don’t need anything, it’s up to you to move on

Rob: Yeah, what House is back is because something else is. We are thinking out that they would be so perfect when people get stuck for years list. This person has almost everything, but they just don’t have that and it becomes. They become a project and you think you can change them. Inherent in that is controller manipulation. 

P: Yeah. I just want to add when people say that they’ve been in a relationship for some time and then they do split up, but they didn’t see any red flags or they the,  they weren’t aware of red flags. Cause I think the red flags are there, but we don’t see them. We don’t want to see them. So, we would pretend or ignore them  

P: I think we ignore them

P: Yeah, because it’s not possible. You know, to not. See the red flags? But we were just pretending to ourselves because we want it to be true. Like you said, the Halo effect. 

Rob: Yeah, So, we talked about the business spectrum, so that. Person has all of that spectrum. What also happens is when we’re looking at them, we only focus on this part of the that we want to see. And the inconvenient truths we ignore. So, it’s being aware of our own mental philtres. Are creating a perception of someone that. Is more of an idealisation. Scary isn’t it? They think you can end up. Another after net staying with someone for a long time, even though deep down you know. But they aren’t the right person for you. Second. Can I just ask you a little bit more about that? Yeah. Why? What made you say? I suppose this and this sounds really. Really stupid, but I think we better just talked about red flags. So, this relationship I’ve just come out up two weeks ago, 2 1/2 years in October last year, we both decided to move house. So, he was moving further away. And I was staying in my home time and I said to him, we’ve been together nearly two years. Why don’t we buy a house together? And he said, personally said I’m not ready. And a spare enough. And then he said. How much can you bring to the table? How much money can you put in and it was half what he could put in his words were. So, is it fair on me if you can only put 100,000 in for example and I can put 200? Is that fair on me? And then if I then go and have an affair with a younger woman? You in a few years’ time you’re going to try and get that money off me. And so, these were the red flags that I kind of ignored at the time. And now I look back and I think shit that, you know, and two weeks ago, he said to me, I don’t see you in my life. Don’t see you in my future life now. I stayed having had those. Quite difficult conversations. It was very upset that he didn’t want it set up a home with me after nearly two years, or even think about it. Because I’ve got a dog he didn’t want to live with my dog. You know, but I stayed and I think I stayed the cause. I think I hope in so many ways he was. So it was such a good person and we had so much fun together in many ways. Um Sinko was kinda hopes that one day he just. Wake up and realise just look me so much that he would want to and that’s really sad. We will do that. We all we all have some form of. It’s comfortable, it’s easy. We have fun. I missed that I wasn’t with them, so I think we will do it, but the clues are always there. And part of it is that. Is that we? Wanna cum slut want to biggest books in in a business boxes. Jim Collins, good to great. Is that the reason why a lot of companies never become great is because. To become great, you have to break good. And the comfortable being good and too scared to break good for great. I don’t think we’ll do that in relationships, is that? Because what you’re doing is you’re giving up. This person for you don’t know what. And is that link into the unknown? This. Thing is, you’re never going to get perfect person. So, it’s it’s it’s just a. It’s learning. The. As you go along the journey, refining what you really want. And that’s really the core of it is what you want. Snow. Who’s out there? How do I make it work with this person? Is knowing what you really need? And even though it’s really painful at the moment, I know deep turn that I can. But there is a better relationship out there for me. You know, so because we’ve talked about for elements that Sanders currently drawn the chart. And you know the when I look at that, I said the other day it was like a light bulb moment because they were. There were parts of that that weren’t there, you know, like they never felt able to speak up and say how I felt because he didn’t do discussions. It had shut me down. You know, if I say that with this makes me feel uncomfortable. I don’t need to discuss that, you know, not discussing that. And that was it and. Really, he was probably a bit of a narcissist, but. You know you’re blind, aren’t you? 

Rob: It’s about like a so, so. As you going to lose relationship, journey is about understanding what made you blind. There is something in your operating system It’s not just you, cousin. All of us. And that’s the thing. That’s going to be. So, there are you, like, there’s all kind of people reading relationship books and about this skill, that skill. It’s not really, it’s really about. What’s the thing that’s driving you that makes you? Believe that makes you want that? Actually. So, in a relationship is back going deeper with someone else, but first you have to go deeper with yourself. And understanding what are the things that are driving you. 

P: How do you do that though? How do you how do? How did you get to that point? Where you, you don’t have those sorts of issues where you don’t go into relationships and stay because you’re scared of breaking up or how do you how do you heal yourself?

P: heal yourself first. And analyse yourself and know yourself worse. And things like that first, before you can understand anything else than anybody else. And then when you know yourself and you love yourself unconditionally. Then you can start to move on. 

P: How come some people can do that? Another people can’t be stupid. 

Rob: It’s, it’s what is a personality type? It’s easier. particularly for people who are introverts and such. So, some people. It does come easier too, but everyone can do that. Can we just? Yeah, I’m sorry, I’m pretty sure. This. Joey. This is OK with this cause obviously this isn’t my personal therapy section. Yeah, but this is an example examples of how, how you doing which I think will be helpful for everyone. When you listen back. What was it? Like I said, what was the emotion? When you looked at him and he saw those things, but you never picked up on it. What was the emotion that you felt? So what? What was looking for? So, you said that you were looking for him to love you, so there was. Like a natural human need to be laugh. Did you feel it with him that I was looking? No. No, I I believe he did love me, Anne. But I he didn’t. I don’t think he was made me feel, looked he wasn’t the kind of person that, you know, I, I think, for example, that physical relationship starts outside of the bedroom. Anne and I, I’m the kind of person that needs that sort of hand, you know? Hold hands when you walk down the street or all the normal things, I think. And I think those are the kind of things that bring you close that make you feel loved when someone holds your hand or says, you know, you sitting on this open the cell made Jules, come and snuggle up to me while we watch. This film was never. Never like that was almost. There’s that, like, a kind of. Emotional gaps and somehow. So. You want to be made to feel safe? Yeah. He didn’t really have that. Were there times when he wanted to be more film? Like when you wanted to be loved more than other times? I don’t know, really, I think. Yes, yes. So, they probably were. I think you know when you’ve got other things going on, you know fat. But like my, my mum’s fully and in a mostly son has issues and there were times when these things were going on that I wanted to feel more loved by him because it would help me to deal with it, those other things. Coz it otherwise you just got all these different areas of your life that are difficult and that it yes. But he was even, you know when it’s going through difficult times with more Cernan my mum was born in hospital and I never felt that he really liked and felt really loved by him and I you know when you imagine your part that. To have a part that this he goes through those sorts of things, they said come here. You know and, and give you a hug. Just wasn’t like that. And I think it felt. It felt very clinical. In that respect. 

Rob: so, you wanted to feel safe and loved, so either way so that you were supported with your outside pressures and stresses.

P: Yeah

Rob: What was your reaction like? Can you interview? You didn’t get that from him. But you felt some time that would come. I hoped. Yeah. So, did you feel that you needed to prove something or you need to do something for him to love you more like that? Yeah, definitely. Bent over backwards for him, he come to my house. He’d sit on the sofa where I am now. I’ve cooking dinner. I’d bringing drinks and I actually was right, little slave backwards and forwards to the to the fridge. And you know. And yeah, I’d go to his house and doing pretty much the same there.

Rob:  So, let’s get to please him. Just. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Rob: You see you somewhere? You felt like if you please someone and you do something even more, someone will love you and you have to earn the love. And so, in the relationship, the signs were there, but your framework wasn’t that if I just do this more. He’ll love me and then I’ll get what I want. And yet they say different things like oil and water. Because he’s not going to love you for what you do. He’s going to see you as a servant.

Julie: He would even save his ironing for me

Faywu: . Can I say something really brutal? 

Rob: Wait, let’s just, Julie, do you want to hear something brutal? You won’t. 

Julie: Do you think I need to hear it? Talk to you. Say it.

Rob:  Is it a favourite? Let me just ask you this, OK? Is it helpful? 

Faywu: I think truth always helps. 

Rob: Okay, is it kind? 

Faywu: It’s kind, is helpful, My outgoing concern for her and for all the others.

Rob:  Okay and one more thing, is it more about you or more about Julie,

Faywu:  about her 

Rob: okay. So, it’s up to you, Julie.

Julie:  So. You can say it, it doesn’t necessarily mean I’ll agree with that. 

Faywu: You you didn’t love him either. 

Julie: I did. But maybe not enough. 

Faywu: We cannot  love people when we have no love to give it. 

Rob: Let me just say that I haven’t, what you said is your opinion,not a statement of fact

Faywu: yes, yes an opinion  

 Rob: Faywu, its an opinion, not a statement of fact. 

P: There is no universal definition of love, so you cannot jump into conclusion and good that she did love him enough. She had our special of love. No, not me. Not you. Not anybody here are allowed to reach that assumption. Sorry about that Julie.

Julie: I did  love him, I still love him

P: It doesn’t go away overnight

Faywu: You were attached to him, it doesn’t mean you loved him because you don’t even love yourself, if you don’t love yourself then you don’t have any love to give to other people 

Julie: I beg to differ, I did love him, I do love him, if he walked in now and said ‘im sorry, we can make this work’ I probably wouldn’t turn him away

Faywu: I don’t expect anyone to agree, I just state my opinion 

P: Hang on Faywu, I might actually agree with what seems like the thing that you’re saying deeper underneath. First of all, you pointed out that year she has self-love issues which I identify with as I said to Julie yesterday, but my father was also absent and my mother was emotionally absent. And second of all, I feel that, Julie. Eat it off him. And what I mean by that is I feel she loved the idea and not the person who actually was. Going to say that I do agree with you on a deeper level. Love is 

Julie: maybe I don’t really know, who do any of us. 

P: Well, that’s a good point because you know what you need. Love isn’t loving someone who doesn’t love you back. So, when you look in the mirror, you get a reflection. If there’s no reflection, it’s not a mirror. And he didn’t reflect that love back to you. So how are you loving someone if he’s not loving you back? That’s not love, is it? So, I think that you had an ideal image. Do you projected onto him and that you have that deeper desire to love someone. You didn’t love him because there was no reflection coming back at you.

Julie: He would have said that he showed me love in other ways, so, when I moved house for example he put my beds together, he put my furniture together, that was, I think, how he showed his look. He didn’t show it. Boo. Sorry my dogs demanding attention here. 

P: You should think about the idea that you didn’t love him. That actually you didn’t get to know him. At his core. The what you loved ones are projected. Ideal image of him,

Rob:  I think what this brings up is. we are all individuals in relationships, will individual but also a definition of love is individual, because we can only understand. From the level of awareness and the level of capability that we have. So, I think I think there’s a point there in that. Often times. We. Won’t laugh. We crave love. And so sometimes will. Will have. An idea? Of what that is. Um. And it’s, it’s kind of like we philtre out some of the things. To have that. I’m really reminded of Eric from said that love is de verb. Love is something that we do and normal we feel. And yes, someone said like I think a lot of people we often we often do give to the other person what we want. Yeah. And it’s, it’s a mesh of what someone wants and what someone. Anymore. 

P: Isn’t it also that some people? Have boundaries. Around the love that they think that they have for somebody, in other words, they, they have. Um put their love within a certain. Set of boundaries either auto fair of being hurt. This is what they can control and they do give you within those parameters. What I would call acts of service to portray love. So, you know, like making doing the bed and doing all of those things and they will fix your car and all of those things. And that for them is showing you that they do care. But what you are really looking for? Is the parts of them that they have put outside that box of love that they like you and most of us strive to get those things outside of the box, but they are never revealed, which is what I think maybe you’re thinking about. So, you love him. I am not going to question whether he was thinking do worry your girl. What’s your but your love? Me as as Betty was saying, you know, it may be your idea of what love with him could be and your search for intimacy with him in terms of getting those conversations was to fill in those blanks. The pieces in the jigsaw puzzle that would make it complete. So, you had the framework which was him and. To get the deeper meaning, I think you are striving to get that from him, but his box was a lot smaller than yours, unfortunately, so the pieces that you wanted were outside of his box to give. I think that’s my interpretation.

Julie: no, it’s a nice way of, I think. Yeah, you’re right. It’s I think it there can be a lot of introspection, can’t there after a breakup night. You know, you find yourself thinking, what if I’ve done that differently or what if I hadn’t said that would, would that not a patterned? But I think you’re right. I think it’s about two people perhaps not really being. Completely right through each other. 

Rob: And it is understanding that is you like you’re was in your operating system, your neurology? It’s also what’s in theirs. some people ask her to laugh. Some people think it’s. They want to limit their level or whatever for different reasons. Steven. 

Steven: Yeah, I think people are making judgments. When and my recollection from the Jaune Goffman thing where he was, they would you were talking about what constituted successful relationships or what were the features of that. One of them was that you have a mutual. Overestimation if you like. I. So 

Rob: Delusional 

Steven, yeah, mutual delusion. Yeah, so, so that is part of. It’s not something you can’t say well. That is, that is part of what love is. Is, is that you are. You are seeing the best sides of people. The, the unfortunate aspect perhaps, is that it wasn’t. Is not always reciprocated. There’s no, there’s no. There’s no assumption that because you love someone, someone also has to love you. I can be in a relationship with you, but that doesn’t mean they have to love you. In my experience, the best things ask them if they use those words. Then you know if they avoid using those words. You also know people will be in physical relationships without being in love. And based on what we were talking about the other day, where we talking about arranged marriages. Arranged marriages and people said those successful part of the success perhaps is that is that the excess emotion of love? Perhaps isn’t present, so the ideal of love is that you have this amazing relationship with someone you’re madly in love with each other and that you grow from that. But that’s not necessarily what happens in relationships, and it’s not a Sara Lee successful sometimes. How can I put it? It’s like a journey. I mean, I think the journey bit is the key and that you can be in different places in that journey. You can be together, but you can you can feel different things and also it can be. As Piers as emotion occurs, then you can have differing kind of views of people as they become emotional if that makes sense. They appear to you to be different. That, and that’s part of that relationship journey as well. So sometimes when someone’s in love with you there at this like the irrational, I mean it’s kind of part the nature of it. And you might you might find that there in that situation that there slightly irrational and you’re like, well, I don’t like this and then you become like that and you don’t you know where we’re not aware of ourselves that this. Much as to as to recognise him, so I don’t think that. That anyone can judge how someone else feels. That’s, that’s their own personal feeling, and they should know, and it’s what it means to them. Emotions are many and varied, and some of them we have names for and some of them don’t. But it is. It is exactly what it means to you. And as I said, the only way that you can tell what someone else feels is if you ask them. And perhaps he also needs to. Define or agree the meaning. So they might say, well, of course I love you because I’m here and you might say, well, actually love means more to me than that. It means this, this and this. And then then you’ve got an agreement because if they then say, well, actually, no, I’m just being here is enough for me. You just, just allowing you to be here is enough for me. Then that may not be the same definition, so I think it’s about communication, but I don’t think you should judge.

Faywu: Steven. Yeah, the reason I made the judgement was because I didn’t. I have a different definition for love which I didn’t define. I think love me not is another ownership and it is not. Catching bit giving. And when we give, we don’t. Well, for example, when yourself dinner or meals for your partner, so not because you want to get something in return, but because. You have their best interesting hearts, so what they need. It’s also because you’re one then then two. Show you. Laugh in some ways. Not about you own benefits, but food benefits then that’s love.

Steven:  Talked about different love languages. I mean, I remember mentioning this at some point and the different people have different things that have meaning to them. And I think that the level of uniqueness of,of individuals is and what and how people feel about things and how they choose to go about romantic relationships is, is very individual. That’s, I don’t think you can. You can say, well, the way I feel about it is this and you have to feel like that because otherwise you are not the same. Everybody needs to have that space to have their own emotions. And express those emotions in the way that they feel is appropriate, but in a relationship. I think you need to communicate and ask and confirm. If the other person feels if feels the same way as you, if that’s important to you because you might be quite happy, you might be in a relationship where. You know one person has is absolutely in love with the other one and the other one is is going along with the relationship and it might be might be absolutely fine. So it’s not assential that you’ll both madly in love with each other and things evolve as well. But it’s, I mean the thing. Saying that I’m I I pick up from where Rob was saying about a year. I’ve had relationships in the past item. Somebody said it to me about 20 years ago. But you know, if you go out with someone for a year and you’re not living together. Then you shouldn’t. You shouldn’t. You should split up and move on and that that for them. Wizard meeting and I carried on in in that manner. So I I took that advice and every year at the end of the year in a relationship I’d be thinking well, you know, is this someone I can live with? Are they moving towards that? And if they weren’t, then that would be the end of the relationship. And the same person that gave my. That advice to me has now been in a relationship, a massive loving relationship for the last five years with someone who lives 60 miles away and they see each other twice a week and they’re perfectly happy. So I think we we all need to be. Careful of what we have, what we think and how we limit ourselves and limit relationships, and it needs to be about communication and evolution. We can’t always expect the right answers to come straight away because things evolve and you evolve together. If you say somebody, I want this. And if their immediate response is, well, I’m not sure about that. They won’t say that they’ll try and avoid the situation or the discussion, but if you give them a few weeks and you bring it up, then you might get what you’re looking for. But if they’re constantly avoiding that discussion, then you can draw the conclusions from that as well. And I think that it’s, if you like, the looking and the journeying it’s you can you can make the assessment that’s absolutely right, but you’re better off being on your own. And and and making the best of life than you are in an unhappy relationship because an unhappy relationship can be miserable and very destructive and emotionally and mentally destructive. But. You also. Can look at a relationship and say that it’s better to have two people that are sharing the load in this world than it is to be on your own. So. In some respects there’s a I think it’s like buying a house. It’s like you can you can buy hacks and you can look for your dream home. And you could be spending forever never getting it. Or you can sit down and you can say, well, here is some sort of minimum. Factors that I I need for that to buy house. I know I want it to have a garage and I wanted to have a drive or I want it to have four bedrooms or what are the key factors are for you and then see what’s best that you can get that gives you what you want and that way you’re more likely to get something rather than nothing. And perhaps if you don’t have a. A dream aspiration. Perhaps then you become happy with what you get because you’ve gone through that kind of logical process. I know that, you know, maybe, maybe the same emotions that definitely the same motions are, aren’t there in buying acts, but it’s still quite unemotional and committed. Thing so. I think this is a different way of looking at it. I think the idea of the of the dream is great. And yes, getting the best person to fit that dream. But the idea that you’re going to. Get the dream and nothing else will do. Doesn’t necessarily lead to a good relationship, and that perhaps it’s the understanding of what a relationship is and what it means to you and what you’re looking for. What are your minimum acceptance criteria is going to lead to a happier relationship than not necessarily happier, but more successful because relationships aren’t always been happy all the time. There’s going to be times when you are going through. Growth period where you’re not happy about this or you’re not happy about that and you’re in conflict, but to me, I think the idea that you have this dream and or you have this set idea of how things have to be. Is limiting, which is one of the things we’re saying that it self-limiting is. Is, is that it’s when you start making this list that’s unrealistic. And then what happens is you don’t achieve your list, but you settled for something. That comes along the best that you find out that moment, which is, which is perhaps. Maybe that’s too practical, but it is perhaps less successful because. If you don’t have to have if you don’t, if you accept something that doesn’t fill the basic criteria, then you’re not going to be happy. So, if you needed a four-bedroom house because of the number of people in your family, you only got 3 bedrooms, one because it had a great garden and a garage and other things that you wanted. Or it looked nice. And then ultimately, it’s not going to be practical. So, I think that’s to me that’s important is relationship is about communication and agreeing what you’re looking for, understanding what you’re looking for and finding that with the part there 

P: Can I ask a question because with the whole idea of. Communication is same thing, isn’t it? For the case that actions speak louder than words, 

Rob: Actions speak louder than words. Is about verifying if what someone says is true, but you start. The communication. You start with the communication. And then if the communication doesn’t match up with their actions. Then it tells you that you like the communication is not valid. Like it’s not valid valid. My basis because if, if what someone says so yes, you ideally you have the conversation but the actions don’t mean words is more about someone that doesn’t live up to the conversation.

P: So, you start with the conversation and then you see if they have been interpreted to match their actions with their words. Do you have the conversation? And if then you realise that they just said it, just keep you happy. Um. Then it’s. 

Rob: Yeah. Then you know that is just words. 

P: Can just say a few words, this topic 

Rob: okay, fine.

P:  because I just had one statement. To be very careful about how we label people, because the response that you get from a person. Their interaction with somebody else about the same matter could have a different outcome. True. Maybe that they are either Stoic  or there, they, they refused to talk about this and it has happened to me. And so, I’m talking from my own experience and yet still with somebody else. It said there’s a different reaction and they behave differently. 

Rob: Yeah, and. Yeah, this kid chemistry is like the. 1. One chemical reacts with a number chemical and it’s is. There’s a danced and it’s different for each person as white, unique. Yeah, this. She thinks there’s so much steam covered, but there’s a few things that I’d like to refine. Is the first views about the positive? Coz we talked with Julie and we talked about the delusion, like your delusions about the person. And so, we, if we remember the. Graph of relationships. The typical marriage relationship goes like that. Oh, just straight out. Normally, the dating relationship. It’s kind of around here. Only maybe even before so. What happens here is we make delusions. Based on. Hope, based on how we feel. So, there’s something else. I’m not sure if Stanley said it or something picked up mostly instead. But why? I had noted down. Pause. There is a spectrum of people’s behaviour. Depends how positive they feel. Depends on which aspect. Of that spectrum, so the location on the spectrum depends on the level of positive emotion. When we’re here, we’re really happy. We really feeling good about the relationship. I’m. The problem with delusion here. Is that we think because the relationships gone? From here to here. That is going to go up to here. And that’s the danger of delusion. In the kind of dating stage. So now they wear. Watch on, gotten talked about with relationship Masters and relationship disasters as they call them, so their relationship masters would go to here and then they keep it. Go up the relationship disasters and the distinction there. Is. Got. This is this is someone you been in a relationship with? Five years or so. And so, it’s a behaviour that’s consistent that they’ve always had, they always will, but you’re framing it in a positive light. So, this behaviour you’re framing in the same way that you saw it there. So, the things that you saw in, in. In a dating relationship. The because there’s hope. That you what people are doing here in delusion is there ascribing qualities that someone who doesn’t have. What’s happening here is the quality that someone has that can be annoying. Someone’s re framing it as a positive. Does that make sense? Because there’s a danger in delusion in because there is going to be a tipping relationship an it’s just the fact of it’s not going to be exciting. It’s not going to be a novelty. So that’s going to change. But when we expect. Got to get better and it gets worse. That’s when we have, like a big jump. But when we know what someone is like and this is a solid characteristic that we know of them. And it’s the thing that might annoy us, but we reframe it. Should be good. Is the distinction between those delusions? Does that make sense? So that one, one is giving someone something that they don’t have and they won’t ever have, and the other is what they have. You’re making the best of it. Sing in the best light. So, where it might annoy you? you’ve reframed into something that you can live